Throughout history, some humans have forced other humans to live a second-class existence based on some arbitrary rule or standard. In so doing they violate the Golden Rule (or, if you are more philosophically inclined, Rawls’ Veil of Ignorance): we would never accept for ourselves the fate we mandate for others.
For example: unfair laws; separate transportation; separate eating places; separate bathrooms; the need for passes to travel; no voice in the society.
All humans are alike in that they have to eat, drink, and go to the toilet. And all humans want a real voice. So how, dreadful and ironic is it to target eating, drinking, and defecating as the three things by which we often differentiate US from THEM. Separate facilities, separate rooms for people of one class; other facilities – usually of lesser quality – for people viewed as “lower”.
But, Grant! Why in the world are you talking about this??? Why are you bringing up this history now?
Oh, sorry. I should have clarified. I wasn’t talking about then; I am talking about now.
Huh! Where are there such practices like this now?
In schools everywhere. Separate eating places and toilets for teachers and for students. Student need permission and passes to go to the toilet. Many staff places are off limits. And students have almost no meaningful say in the development of school rules and policies.
How about if I announce this tomorrow: “As of today, the administration will have a fancy executive washroom and dining room for their own use; not for teachers. And teachers will need written permission to leave their rooms and the school.” I suspect there would be a big outcry. But are we blind to what we unwittingly do to students, especially high school students?
Dewey wrote clearly and powerfully, in Democracy and Education, of the need of school to practice what democracy preaches if democracy is to thrive in future generations. 100 years later I don’t see much progress, especially in secondary schools.
True story: In a Pennsylvania district, the Superintendent loaded up a bus of high school teachers and took them to the local prison. Their task was to compare and contrast prison with high school. A few teachers i spoke with said it was a transformative poignant experience: there were manny ways in which prisoners had more freedoms and respect than students.
Food for thoughtâŠ
[This is a completely rewritten post, in response to appropriate criticism of me using a term to describe my concerns about students in schools. Hopefully, my apology and this re-write puts us back on track to do what this blog is about: deeper thinking and discussion about serious educational issues.]
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29 Responses
I agree. Schools do this to keep teachers happy. They do deserve a break from their students. They do need time to reflect, be by themselves, and not to have to be around their students for a mid day break. However, if they eat on campus, they should eat in the same cafeteria. They should all use the same facilities as well. If the cleanliness is the issue- solve that issue. If safety is the issue- fix that. Treating kids like prisoners in this way does not help.
One reason I no longer teach in the U.S. is that as a teacher my principals evaluated me based on how well my students walked in line. They’d harp on this and I had to exert a lot of energy on this trivial matter. Nevermind that my students were doing well academically.
In my opinion since I believe you are stretching things here, so will I by posing the following: By your post, you would then conclude that a private in the military should have the same rights and access to the exact same things a general does. I don’t think so.
As far as my school goes, we have faculty restrooms that students are not allowed to use. Both facilities are kept clean and one is not better than the other. I personally feel it would be inappropriate for me to be standing next to one of my students while we are using the facilities.
As far as the teachers’ lunch room goes, yes it is off limits to students. This is because teachers often work through lunch and the lunchroom is more accurately described as a conference room. Many student issues are addressed and the topics of conversations are not appropriate for students.
In my opinion a “classless” society may sound great, but is it realistic? I don’t think so. I do believe we will always have someone at the top and someone at the bottom. I strive everyday to shrink the amount of separation between the extremes because I am a teacher and I believe this is something that can be achieved though education.
I wish I could recall the article, but I read a story once comparing prison culture to school-cafeteria culture. The guards eat, drink, and use the restroom elsewhere, and it leaves the prisoners to sort out their own pecking order, complete with cliques and bullies.
A year ago I was determined to eat lunch a couple of days a week in the student cafeteria, to mingle with the kids and interrupt the natural order of things. It was really difficult. You have so much sensory overload at that time of day and really crave the quiet, adult conversation with your peers.
But I think I should pick it up again. If I’m consistent with it, I could report out to the staff how it worked out for me and how it changed the lunchtime experience for me and the kids. We do eat lunch with the students when we teach at the summer institute, and the summer institute has a much more communal, friendlier feel to it than the regular school year.
Completely agree with you on the eating space. Bathrooms….not so much. I think that is a place where both students and adults appreciate the space.
I was pretty sure most people – especially women – would agree with you. As a male who shared eating, bathroom, and locker facilities with boys – and thought it a good thing educationally – I was probably thinking only of my (male) experience in a secondary school.
Not at our school, we all use the same restrooms & eat together – no “teacher table”.
I agree with you, Grant. If it’s sensory overload for teachers, then I would question how the lunch environment might be overwhelming for students also. How are we ever going to divorce ourselves from the institution of education if we are unwilling to address how students and teachers can be supportive of each other? When I first came to my school I suggested that I give my teachers a “break” at lunch time since they ate lunch with students. They respectfully declined the opportunity. After a year our working together, students and teachers, I have to say…what was I thinking.
Please understand, I think your suggestion to rethink bathroom/dining hierarchies is well worth considering. I just wish you had suggested it without the comparison to violent, oppressive racial segregation.
My first thought… but I need to get away from my students for some quiet time. (I’m an elementary school teacher.) My second thought: my students don’t have that option. Maybe, instead of all of us being required to eat together in the cafeteria, everyone should have the option of finding a quiet spot if that’s needed.
I first picked up on this on Twitter, thanks to Jose Vilson but this is a better forum for the discussion. I don’t know if this is your version of Devil’s Advocate or if you are truly ignorant of how loaded a term Apartheid is. In either case, your question, which is valid, has been obscured by your unfortunate turn of phrase and you have sabotaged your own dialogue in this way. That is all I’m going to say on that matter.
Now, for the question at hand, I do agree that it would be ideal for teachers and students to have a shared space that does not have the same power dynamic that exists in the classroom. I envision this to be some kind of open common area designed like a living room. Cafeterias are busy, loud, bustling places and kids look forward to having some time with each other to talk about this or that without worrying about teachers overhearing them. They have just as much right to private conversation as we adults do. So, an open common area would provide a neutral ground where students and teachers can gather as their schedules allow without either party feeling like their space (literally and figuratively) is being intruded on. When I was in Copenhagen, I saw an incredible exhibit at Lousiana about school design. The ideas were amazing, innovative and completely realistic if schools were dedicated to the idea of change. The exhibit is no longer there but here is a link to one example of such a school: http://www.dezeen.com/2007/10/19/orestad-college-copenhagen-by-3xn-architects/
Thank you for your criticism and your great example (and link). I was unwise to use the term apartheid in the original version of the post, even though, strictly speaking, the term does describe the practices I mentioned and others I didn’t (like needing hall passes and no voice in the governance of the school in most places). If use of the term turned people away from even considering the message, it was then clearly an error.
Hello, Grant,
It’s not that “use of the term turned people away from even considering the message” – the message is one that many people have been saying for years, and that many schools have been putting into practice. The idea that both students and teachers benefit from the culture that arises from an intelligent use of shared spaces is not new or provocative. Underutilized? Absolutely, but not new or provocative by any stretch.
As others have pointed out, your use of the term “apartheid” – and then, leter in the thread, “segregation” – shows an incredible lack of understanding and respect for the ONGOING impact of these policies. And even still, despite the pushback, you continue to assert that you were only “unwise to use the term apartheid, even though, strictly speaking, the term does describe the practices I mentioned and others I didnât.”
I don’t harbor any illusions that anything I say here will convince you – I already imagine you filing this comment away as another example of “incivility.” But – assuming both that you leave this post up, and don’t edit my comment from your comment thread – I do want other people who come on this post to know and understand that many of us find the comparison inept, inaccurate, and offensive.
Actually, I think you over-estimate the degree of change in this area. I am in hundreds of schools each year and I think the practices are worse, not better – especially in urban schools.
Interesting reactions. I have worked in both situations and prefer the inclusive model. Having teachers and students eat together brings civility to the cafeteria. I often would take my class back to our room as the students would want to work on projects or just have the quiet of the classroom. This was my time to model proper eating manners and get to know my students better as people. We also shared the same bathrooms. We trained our systems to have to use the restroom when our kids were in specials. This was important when we had special needs. I did have some lessons on what the small trash bins were there for and that could be tricky with my first graders. I believe if we are truly about developing a community of learners these are both important aspect of our growth. I would offer that we not be offended by vocabulary and focus on what will help us get our kids ready for their future.
Thank you for the rewrite and for the apology.
My school (grades 7-12) doesn’t have hall passes, and I make it clear to my students that they do not have to ask to leave the classroom if they have a need. The 7th graders usually ask how I’ll know they’re not abusing the privilege, and I respond that if I see a pattern of their repeatedly taking long breaks, I’ll certainly talk to them alone, but that our classroom has to work on some level of trust. For some kids, it takes them a while to learn that I’m quite serious that they don’t have to ask, but others take it on faith from day one.
We are a girls school, and the women’s bathrooms are in fact used by adults and students alike. We’ve begun to address the fact of life that not people, even at a girls school, identify within a gender binary, and we also have a number of single-occupancy bathrooms that are gender neutral.
As for student voice in school policies, we set up a joint student-faculty committee this year (one 7th grader, one 8th grader, two teachers) to write a Middle School iPad Acceptable Use Policy as this is the first year we are using the device. Before their first meeting, we held a large meeting which all middle school students attended and to which all middle school teachers were invited. We generated initial thoughts on why we use iPads, what would be appropriate uses, what would be inappropriate uses, and what distinguishes the two. The committee went off to discuss all the ideas, and came up with an amazing proposal. We in the process of vetting it and bringing it back to the kids for final approval.
By no means is my school perfect – but these are a few examples of how we try to meet the kinds of ideals you are talking about here. Thanks again for the discussion.
These are inspiring examples. It isn’t the norm, alas, in my experience. Perhaps readers will take your good ideas and push for them in their settings.
Thank you! đ
I rarely ever “deny” a student permission to use the bathroom when they ask. When I do it is usually because I need to do something in class at that moment and will let them go later. You mention that your students do not need “to ask to leave the classroom if they have a need”. What do you do in case of a fire drill? A lock down? How do you account for the student who have “walked” out of your class? What do you do when the office calls asking for one of your students because their dad is there to pick them up, and you cannot tell them where his daughter is? As a hopeful administrator one day, I would be very worried about this. School and student safety are of the utmost importance, so please tell me it is not as “open” as you make it sound….
I know many schools – including my own town’s HS – that have far less restrictive policies than you are describing. I fear that – as in the US at large – safety and security concerns, real as they are, are further eroding a move toward student autonomy (a move that has worsened in HS since I began teaching, when there used to be many electives, free periods with free movement, and robust student governance.)
It is possible to preserve student autonomy to some degree without compromising safety. For example, in my own classroom, I had a rule that students could not leave the room during the first and last ten minutes of class unless it was urgent or the student had an appointment. In between, the bathroom pass was by the door for students to grab as needed without being disruptive to the class. Other teachers had a sign-out sheet by the door as well.
Well, Michael, I can’t tell you it is not as “open” as I make it sound (although, yes, if we’re nearing the end of an activity, I will ask someone to wait for the natural break in the flow of the class). I will tell you the bathroom is about 15 feet from my classroom, out the back (which doesn’t have a door), with nowhere else to go except down the back staircase which leads only to a building exit that is inconvenient for going much of anywhere else. So honestly, I could make them ask permission and give them a pass – and find myself in the exact same position in any of the three cases you describe above as if I hadn’t done that. Either they’re where they’re supposed to be, and no worries, or they’re not, and we worry first about their safety and later about the dishonesty. To my mind, permission and a pass doesn’t change that scenario.
Very good. The restrooms for my students are not very close to my room as yours are, so it is not as bad as I thought. I also agree completely with your statement of “Either theyâre where theyâre supposed to be, and no worries, or theyâre not, and we worry first about their safety and later about the dishonesty”. I also thank you for supporting me in asking that they wait for a better time to use the facilities.
I did teach at a school that had an active student government and there were many scheduled meetings that included students, teachers and administrators to discuss any and all issues pertaining to the school. It was great interacting with the students and they did feel they had a voice, and more importantly, that we were listening to them. I wish we had that at the school at teach at now……
Keep up the good work!!
Insensitive and offensive remarks that are offered with good intentions shows, at best, ignorance.
Will no longer subscribe to your blog as a result.
Why are you editing the comment thread on this post? Earlier today, there were 34 comments. Now, there are 19.
If you are going to be a responsible steward of the conversation, you need to respect diverse opinions.
Am I missing something here? Posts from me, Chris Thinnes, Michelle Baldwin, and several others were here earlier, and now appear to have been deleted.
Because the posts deleted reflect the prior post which was edited.
Hi Grant,
I read your blog regularly but do not comment as much as I would like. I think it is important to do so this time. I am shocked by the amount of aggression coming your way here. As a Humanities teacher it worries me to see people (teachers I assume for the most) demanding apologies and threatening to unsubscribe from your blog because of a clunky reference to Apartheid. It is disturbing the number on here that cannot tell the difference between exploitation of the term and well-meaning but misguided analogy.
Can you imagine if I responded the same way to my students when discussing the Holocaust, Colonialism, slavery etc; ‘Hey Tim, what do you mean that workers in the Industrial mills of the North of England were treated as badly as slaves on the plantations of the American South (an actual comment by a G8 student)? How dare you trivialise slavery! Go to the back of the room and do not open your mouth again!’ It is an absurd thought.
However there seems to be contributors here that would have this happen. We cannot put certain events in history and terms like Apartheid under the glass cases of the museum. We need to play with these artefacts, explore them. It is guaranteed that by letting them gather dust under glass we will soon have another example to add to the collection.
I will never forget the class where, discussing racist propaganda by the Greeks and Romans against the Celts, a Grade 6 boy summarised; “So the Celts were like the blacks today?” Cue giggling boys and a slew of racist comments. Or the day two British boys in a class on Irish demographics began to make disparaging comments about Polish plumbers when asked who were the number one immigrant group to Ireland during the early Celtic Tiger years (What a discussion we had when they found out it was UK citizens!). Judging from the comments on here I am genuinely concerned by how many of our teachers would have handled these genuine cases of racial prejudice. Shame on any of you who chose to unsubscribe from this blog and refuse dialogue.
To the point you were making Grant. Not sure I agree with you. For me, real exclusion (Apartheid) is occurring more than ever in the public/private school divide. In my last school, a small International School in Germany, native Germans made up more than 95%. Many parents were very honest as to why. The lowest of the German 3-tier system (Hauptschule), which was designed for training for manual trades has (as they see it) become a dumping ground for immigrant children. Result? If you cannot get your child into a Realschule (technical school) or Gymnasium (university-stream school), get them into a private school at all costs. Sadly, I expect to see more of this across the continent as children of migrants and children of natives live in parallel, or Apartheid, societies.
Thanks for this thoughtful look at the issues of language use and substantive issues of class division in schooling. Yes, I, too, have been dismayed at how ad hominem the discussion has been in some quarters. The lack of civil discourse is growing and it cannot be good for education specifically or our society generally.
There would also be some great teachable moments while standing side-by-side with my students, peeing. “Look straight ahead. Don’t talk. Wash your hands.”
These are important life lessons that must be modeled. đ