So…
Over 650,000 read the previous guest post on the shadowing of two HS students. And over 250 readers wrote comments, most of them long and heartfelt.
What happened?
Clearly it struck a chord.
Not news. Yet, as a number of commenters pointed out – and I agree – the passive and sitting life of a HS student is not news. Our surveys document this, and I have written about my own observations of the boredom I see. Ted Sizer’s Coalition of Essential Schools (for which I worked as the 1st director of research 30 years ago) began life due to Horace’s Compromise and The Shopping Mall HS which both documented the problem (along with massive data from John Goodlad’s A Place Called School). All of which was preceded by Postman & Weingartner, Kozol, Silbermann and Friedenberg in the 60s.
In fact, the very first task we at the Coalition office assigned in 1985 to the school liaisons from the 8 initial Coalition schools was to shadow a student in their schools and report out their findings at our first meeting at Brown.
I’ll never forget Dale Doucette, from Portland HS, eager to report out first. Dale was not only a teacher and English Dept. Chair at PHS, he had been a student there. He opened his remarks by saying how much he loved his school. He ended by saying he went home and cried to his wife: he had no idea how boring his beloved school was. And, he said, his butt hurt from so much sitting.
Our blind spots as teachers. It seems, then, that by the very nature of the job of teaching, we are prone to be insensitive (literally) to the actual daily experience of our students, what they feel, unless we get outside of ourselves by acts of will. And that’s what the anonymous post so beautifully accomplished: for a moment we could leave our egos and empathize, really sense vicariously, what students often feel and what we have inevitably stopped feeling by becoming teachers with different feelings.
Years ago Lee Schulman and I were discussing his then-new research for the National Board for Prof. Teaching Standards and I asked him: “So what are the most powerful indicators for determining who is likely to be a really great teacher?” He replied: “Well, you might be surprised or dismayed by the most interesting finding: the best teachers are remarkably good at describing in fine detail what happens in their classroom even as they teach and move an agenda forward [based on post-observation interviews and looking at video].”
That really hit me because not two days before I had sat in on the “best” teacher in Jefferson County KY and watched her overlook the looks of confusion and disengagement on the faces of kids in group tasks. As she left one group, clearly happy that they were on task and understanding, my eyes lingered on the group. All four rolled their eyes and one girl threw up her hands in frustration over not getting it.
I was the first teacher in my school – in 1978 – to tape myself. I thought: well, coaches watch game film; why don’t I? Yikes! I was horrified. I had thought of myself as a good teacher and I was praised for being one. But the tape told a different story. My manner was a bit off-putting; I was a tad sarcastic; I was using phrases like “Well, it’s obvious that…” and “So, anyone can see that…” and I was not as skilled as I thought I had been in checking peripheral vision. I had missed 5-6 kids making a timid attempt to enter the discussion. Without my noticing and imploring them in, they fell back to more passive distanced listening.
All clearly visible on tape. All not seen by me.
A blameless critique. So, there is no blame here or in the prior post! This is the tragedy of being a teacher (against which there is also great comedy and happy endings): as teachers we cannot see everything; we cannot be everywhere; we cannot truly 100% LISTEN and WATCH as we think about managing the next part of the lesson. (Why would the “wait time” data be so dismal if this weren’t true?)
And that to me is a key answer as to why the anonymous poster’s remarks struck a nerve. She didn’t blame anyone. She noted our collective myopia. Indeed, she mostly blamed herself for her own blindness to the experience. And she offered sensible and practical solutions to each of the problems discussed.
So, why, then, was the post anonymous? She and I had agreed to keep the post anonymous for one simple reason: the author is new to her job as a coach and neither of us wanted her to be viewed as tattling on her colleagues or undermining their trust in her. I also had a personal 2nd reason in keeping her profile hidden from all Internet trolls as well as her colleagues: the post was written by my daughter, Alexis, a veteran of 17 years of teaching in varied schools in this country and others. We both now agree it is time for her to be recognized for her wonderful piece of writing since her colleagues now know she is the author. (Her Principal was the one who proposed the shadowing task in the first place, not me.)
A few clarifying comments are in order, based on the half million reads and many comments and tweets:
- I was thus not the author of the piece; there was no attempt on my part to hide behind a mythical person, though many thousands attributed the piece to me (even though my introduction to the post said that I was not the author).
- There were hundreds of comments about the cause of this HS drudgery being due to NCLB, Common Core, teacher accountability, and standardized tests. OOPS – as I noted early in one of my few replies to comments, Alexis teaches in a private school. Indeed, she teaches overseas in an American International School. So those many reader comments were a bit of projection – which, itself, is perhaps worthy of another post. The fact that such passive learning exists in good private schools (and colleges) only makes the matters raised in her post MORE important: why do we continue to make even elite education so passive when we don’t have to?
- The overwhelming response to the post was positive. Only a tiny handful of readers trashed the post, the author, me, and/or other commenters who were positive. They felt attacked as educators (though I really believe a fair reading of the piece shows that it was not an attack on teachers but schooling as we have all experienced it).
- The most poignant comments had to do with Alexis’ observation that the teachers she observed – as well as herself and me on video – are unwittingly more sarcastic than we imagine ourselves to be. Numerous parents picked up on this truth, too. Only 2 commenters tried to defend sarcasm in teachers.
- Alexis teaches in a school that has a block schedule, as was noted by the post. That made the passivity longer and more tiring – but it also meant that Alexis did not get to visit all the students’ classes (which included art and other more active classes). The good news: Alexis shadowed students in the other block and will report her findings later this week.
I hope that you have found this discussion of value; I hope you find the initial anonymity understandable; and I hope that you will continue to read and write such thoughtful comments to the future posts that Alexis will write based on further shadowing, surveys, and interviews. Stay tuned.
131 Responses
Thank you for the follow-up. These thoughtful posts provide a needed perspective for all educators.
One more thought.
I had a college professor for physics who allowed us to make notes on both sides of a full sheet of paper before our exams.
I thought to myself…usually it’s only an index card, but she’s awesome! Homework problems weren’t allowed and we had to turn it in with our test.
I filled mine out with the smallest print possible and as full as possible. After my exam I told her I never even had to use my sheet. She said “that’s the point. If you spend time researching the material and writing it, you will learn it…which is the whole goal.”
It gave me a constructive way to study the material, as well as write and organize it in a way that I understood it. It worked great!!
Great story. i actually heard the same story from a prep school Physics teacher who did the same thing. He must have known or influenced her.
Interesting that you would assume that “he” (the prep school Physics teacher) knew or influenced “her” (the college professor). Wouldn’t it be at least as likely or more likely that “she” influenced “him”?
By the way, I enjoyed reading the two posts and many of the comments. My daughter, who is in her first year as a classroom teacher, posted them on Facebook. I’m really glad that people with credentials and research to back them up are confirming ideas about teaching that I’ve had for years. I’m not a trained teacher, but have done a lot of teaching in my life, in various contexts and with various age groups.
I only assumed it because it was 30 years ago. No discrimination!
For what it’s worth, I’ve seen a LOT of teachers use the “cheat sheet” in a way that gets students to study effectively – and heard similar stories from my parents, which puts us more than 30 years ago. At this point, I doubt we can trace this method to one particular teacher anyway!
Thank you Alexis! I made one change toward one change at a time already on Tuesday. My mid day class now goes outside for a 5 min walk around the track before starting our lesson. The kids love it and talk about how energized they feel. They are better listeners, more alert, and less problematic. The 5 min lost is really gained!
Thank you for the hugely valuable reflections, and my best to your daughter who shed so much light on the lack of student engagement in so many secondary classrooms.
The insights derived from watching students need to be applied to professional development for teachers….engagement in every teaching endeavor is key.
Great post ! I’m an educator trained in UK, and had not come across The Coalition of Essential Schools, so many thanks for pointing me in that direction. So much learning for all educators of all experiences, it’s essential that we retain ‘critical reflection’.
I attended our provincial math conference this weekend in Alberta and our keynote was presented by Dr. Breithecker who did not use the word ‘math’ once during his presentation. He talked about keeping our bodies in motion so our brains can be in motion. He went so far as to say that sitting is the new smoking! Here is a link to an introduction to his work: http://www.arch.virginia.edu/events/center-design-and-health-lecture-dr-dieter-breithecker
After he spoke, a friend of mind shared your (your daughter’s) post via Twitter and connected it to what we had heard in Dr. Breithecker’s keynote address. I think this is a good reminder for educators and I will make movement more frequent in my math classes.
Thanks for sharing!
I read the original post and never felt it attacked my teaching-or teachers-or anyone’s teaching methods in general. It made me think, “how can I be more innovating in the classroom?” And “how can I engage my students from the first minute of class?”
After 35 years in both public and private schools I would highly recommend home schooling if you are set up and able to do it. It is much more beneficial for the children and the family – however, you must be capable of teaching the material and if not get a tutor for subject areas in which you may not have the expertise. Way to much politics in most any kind of schools these days and it is a very unhealthy atmosphere for youth and adults alike. I was a teacher of Comprehensive Sciences, English, History as well as special needs children grades K-12. I enjoyed small group and one-to-one the most by far and the disabled children were a joy with which to work. The mainstream students – well not always so much not to mention the administrative debacle as well as the cultural politically correct agenda that is force fed to staff and many parents alike regardless of ones life philosophy and religious convictions. When all is said and done education has become just another industry sadly in my opinion and observations from the early 70s through the present day.
You taught… English?
touche
You would prefer public schools to push a non-politically correct agenda that excludes certain religious convictions, as opposed to excluding all religious convictions and allowing students to practice and learn their religion outside of school hours? I’ve never understood this argument. If somebody wants a religious education, there are plenty of private schools for that purpose.
Very few parents have the knowledge to teach all subjects to students, especially all the way through their senior school years. I do agree that home schooling is beneficial for some students in some circumstances, but for many others it can be devastating to their education. Obviously you are educated, but unfortunately it’s often the less-educated parents who feel they are equipped to home school based on conviction and religion rather than expertise. I have met many adults who were home schooled (including some relatives), and only one of those had what I would call a successful education with good outcomes. The majority did not finish high school.
Having taught a dozen or so home-schooled students who came to public schools for certain high school courses, I would second Heather. Very few were well-rounded and informed; most showed significant gaps in their education, largely based on parents’ knowledge and ideology — political, religious, cultural — across the spectrum. Being exposed to ideas, customs, and attitudes of people different from ourselves is part of the experience and impact of school. It cannot be duplicated or compensated for in a home school environment, no matter how many “field trips” the students take with the other kids in their local home school association.
(By the way, a former colleague met his students before school each morning for Tai Chi. He taught them basic moves and led the exercise. They told him it seemed to wake them up and energize them for the day.)
Of course, in my experience, as both a public/government school teacher and now a teacher who home-schools my own children, I know for a fact that dozens of home schooled children in my area do indeed never earn a high school diploma. Instead, they have their Associates, Bachelor’s, and even Master’s degrees by the time they are 17, Oh yes, many have several higher education degrees by the time the government schooled students earn their “one” high school degree. Faced with that reality of tremendous opportunity, I couldn’t home school my kids fast enough!!! Just last week I ran into an old friend I haven’t seen in years – he and his wife home schooled their now 20 year old son. I asked him how his son was doing and he replied “Well, he has an Associate’s degree, two Bachelor degrees, and a Master’s degree. He now lives in Washington D.C. and works for the government.” I asked what type of job he has, and he replied “I actually do not know — it is a highly classified job — so, he can’t tell us!!!” The list goes on and on. Truth be told, you are right that innumerable field trips cannot take the place of a government school environment– but that is the entire point. It is not supposed to compensate — it is supposed to SURPASS. To the author of the article: excellent points — as a former government school teacher, I too felt children sat far too long. I incorporated a lot of movement in my lessons. Now that I home-school my own children, I am able to incorporate all the best practices of teaching and am thrilled at the progress of each one of them. Thank-you for this article.
I’m not sure I believe you. I have never heard anyone who has a masters talk about having an associates degree. An AA is basically not a degree…
Well I have an Associate of Applied Science (A.A.S.) in Police Science, a Bachelor of Science in Education (Business Education) and a Master’s (M.S.) in Management. Truthfully, I am very proud of the AAS because I worked so hard for it. The other two had much easier requirements and a “A or B” was acceptable. In the AAS it was pass/fail, either you completed it at 100% or you kept at it until you could.
I share your findings with the student teachers I supervise! I am an avid believer in you as a researcher and educator.
Thanks for the original post, and the update! I do worry about the “pendulum of education” swinging too far on this one. While I totally agree we should all constantly look at how we teach, I do worry that being too critical of ourselves (and maybe of others) might lead to even more stress and burnout. Teachers are not perfect, and teachers have their own styles (which can and should be constantly updated to make positive changes), but too much self-critique might actually cause more harm than good. The last thing I want to worry about is whether or not I’m perfect (sure no one is saying this directly, but aren’t most of us here perfectionists – come on admit it!).
Do we risk damaging our own confidences if we are too critical of ourselves. If I looked at a tape of myself, I’d find so many things that I wished I’d done differently that it would really bother me – even when things actually went really well. I can’t think about that and teach at the same time. I think we need to encourage reflection, but be supportive of each other when we see great teachers get down a little because of self doubts. Does this make sense? Maybe we need an AA meeting for self-reflection…
I hear you, G, but it seems hypocritical at worst timid at best to me. We ask everyone to self-assess in life and the research makes clear it’s a good thing. I have footage of 1st graders doing it just fine, and no teacher should be immune from it if the goal is improvement. Video is actually a great tool – completely nonjudgmental. That’s why coaches use it; that’s why actors and voice coaches use it. Try it, you’ll like it as the old ad goes.
Oh I totally agree that we have to reflect and review on what/how we do in class. I just hate looking at myself in the camera/video. I’m not being hypocritical – I agree about the critiquing process. However, I’m kinda more happy about surveys and asking students to critique me than I am for watching myself in a video. I also think we need to be aware of the fact that some people are camera shy. That’s why I kinda like the support group idea because we do need to do video/audio reviews even if they do make us feel uncomfortable, I’m just saying that it would be nice to support each other during the process. I’m not sure we as teachers support each other enough when someone is really trying something outside their comfort zones.
Agreed on last point – we need support. But it saddens me to think that a grown person might be more afraid of video than a 14 year old ball player. If we truly are professionals – like comics, politicians, public speakers, musicians, and TV and movie people, we should feel obligated to observe ourselves.
Isn’t that just your opinion? If students aren’t supposed to fit into the perfect school model, why do teachers have to? How about when teachers get paid and are respected like comics, politicians, public speakers, musicians, and actors, then you can be critical of someone who doesn’t want their likeness recorded. In one comment, you manage to dismiss the writer and insult a group of people because they don’t conform to your standard of “professionalism.” That one snarky comment alone makes me question your professionalism.
It’s possible to reflect on your teaching without the need for recording. It’s called having colleagues observe your practice.
Actually, I would have defended sarcasm in teachers, and wrote a long comment on the last post–and then deleted it, because really, why fight the zeitgeist?
But since you made a point of mentioning that only two commenters supported sarcasm, I thought I’d add my voice after all.
I wasn’t terribly moved by the post, was even less moved by the various comments., I mean no offense to your daughter or to anyone else, but as long as we’re using this opportunity to examine our teaching, let’s look at how many times everyone said “I”. That is, your daughter spent two days shadowing students and came out of it thinking only of what *she* felt and what *she* would do and how horrible *she* felt about *her* teaching. Never once did she think that maybe she was in her late 30s, I guess, and might have different thoughts about school than she would have at 15 or 16. These are the same kids who sit for hours watching TV or playing video games, but suddenly they need to get up and move around or it’s an intense injustice? They can’t listen to someone for more than, what, 10 minutes at a time? I completely understand that her impetus was to change her teaching, and many others were saying the same thing. But it came off very much as if most commenters were openly enjoying their wonderfulness for appreciating the post. Which is probably why very few naysayers added their thoughts–but more than a few probably rolled their eyes.
As part of my education school training six years ago, I was required to shadow a student for two days (also a block schedule). I found it utterly fascinating. I wasn’t shocked or horrified, but rather impressed with how well kids navigate a complicated day. Yes, some of the classes were boring. Yes, I saw cases where teachers were instructing kids that were lost, and yes, like all teachers, I itched to get in there and fix the problem. We’re not perfect, as you say. But part of not being perfect means recognizing that it isn’t all about us, that how *we* feel after pretending to be our students for a day or two doesn’t mean that *they* feel that way every day.
A simple “Wow, this was enlightening. Toss that discomfort into the mix next time I plan a lesson.” would have sufficed.
As for sarcasm, I guess the definition is changing. I am not hurtful or unpleasant to my kids. I am definitely ironic in ways that I would describe as mildly sarcastic, and the kids enjoy it. And certainly, I use paws up, but claws not out sarcasm as a form of classroom management in ways that I am perfectly content with. Now, perhaps other teachers are incapable of non-hurtful sarcasm. Or perhaps everyone’s just a little too pure.
For example, “Ernesto, you appear perfectly enthralled with Sophia’s conversation. Must be fascinating. Sophia, perhaps you’d like to share?” is sarcasm. I do not, in fact, want Sophia to share. I want her and Ernesto to pay attention. If I say this with a bright and cheery voice, I am not being hurtful. But I am being sarcastic.
Sorry for the long comment.
“doesn’t mean that *they* feel that way every day.”
But by and large, they do feel the same way. That is what Grant’s other HS surveys say.
Your main idea seems to be, “it’s not bad”. But it is terribly boring for many, many students, and further, nothing much has changed in decades.
No, that’s not my main idea. It’s “don’t make it all about you.”
I’m on record as deeply skeptical of Grant’s HS surveys, because they don’t slice and dice student demographics and abilities before asking them questions. A top student being bored and a barely function student being bored are very different issues with very different teaching responses.
I HAVE sliced and diced the results by some demographics (grades and kind of school) and the results do not vary. Not sure why your opinion trumps the data – data found in most other surveys.
Your example of “mild sarcasm” might be embarrassing or humiliating to certain students. Almost fits the definition of social bullying, as it is sort of making fun of and belittling Sophia. It would have served to shut me up completely in that class, leaving me fearful that any utterance on my part would open me up for more public embarrassment. Some students can let that “mild sarcasm” roll off their backs, but certainly there are those who would feel the sting.
I have to respond to the sarcasm. I have a middle school daughter. She is a high honor roll student. She finds pride and accomplish in her academics, and places far more pressure on herself than I ever would. Last week she forgot her homework, not because she chose not to do it, but because like adults, she made a mistake. As she got into class and realized this she panicked. Her nervous reaction is to cover her mouth, 12 year old age appropriate. Her teacher gave her some comment that crushed her. Upon picking her up even her explaining to me her “humiliation and embarrassment” brought tears to her eyes. “I am not that student that just doesn’t do my homework or that student that thinks it is not serious” she stressed over even going into class the next day. What was accomplished by that??? On a much brighter note my daughter to the initiative to email the teacher and explain she wanted to apologize at the end of class for the misunderstanding but was “scared” to approach him! I was very thankful to see an email back from the teacher thanking her the email and encouraging her to never fear approaching him. It was not the lack of missing homework that had her that upset. She had already figured out with no grade under a 93 and HW only 20% of her grade she was in the clear for high honors. It was the comment and the weight of how that teacher made her feel. Please understand this teacher at parent teacher night seemed great. I feel he really does care about the students he teaches everyday. This is not meant to be a teacher bashing rather hopefully another perspective on what some may see as harmless in a classroom.
I just graduated from high school and I always found sarcasm such as you provided to be hurtful. I and other sensitive, conscientious students were always put off by what we saw as an insult. If I am unwelcome to use sarcasm with a teacher, I did not want them to use sarcasm with me. (This of course was nearly always the case in a teacher-students relationship.) When both parties can use sarcasm, it is a pleasant, equal exchange. When only one party uses it, the other, if not thick-skinned, can easily feel attacked.
I had a Spanish teacher for 3 semesters that had a reputation as the worst teacher in our high school. (Of course, I do not compare you to her, but I want to give an example of how disruptive sarcasm can be to a learning environment.) Sarcasm was her only classroom management strategy. All the students were terrified of her. If you asked a question, she sarcastically said you should have paid better attention to the lecture. If she asked a question and you answered wrong, she’d simply raise her eyebrows at you and not help or offer suggestions as you struggled to find the right conjugation of a verb. There was no kindness, no empathy, no humanity. I knew only two students that liked her. They claimed you had to understand her sarcasm, but most students couldn’t. Many begged guidance counselors to be switched to another teacher. She was the only 4th year teacher the last year I had her and so few students took 4th year (because it was not required to graduate) that they had to make her the only 3rd year teacher this year so that 4th year Spanish could continue to be a class. The only reason I stuck through it was because I wanted to minor in Spanish. Classmates that before loved Spanish hated it with a passion after having this sarcastic teacher.
Again, I don’t mean to say that you are a terrible teacher. I mean only to give an example of sarcasm gone wrong. If used improperly or in excess, it can (in my opinion) only be detrimental to students.
I thank God I never had you for a teacher.
It’s this sort of talk that makes it impossible to discuss teaching. People are, as I said, more than a tad narcissistic about it.
Anyway, I wrote about it here: http://hypersensitivecranky.wordpress.com/2014/10/26/on-sarcasm-irony-and-teaching/
I am an in-class resource/support teacher in a high school Algebra 1, Algebra 2 and 9th grade Lab biology. I have the unfortunate opportunity, 2-3 times a day, EVERY day, for 180 days a years, to be in the shoes of your daughter. The confusion, the busy taking notes, the ‘listen to me drone on and on about stuff I think is so cool that I don’t care you do’ attitudes; the sarcasm; the ‘we don’t have time for project learning because we’re skimming the curriculum to hit all the PARCC topics…
It makes me want to quit my job everyday… but I stay because I need to… I stay because in it all I provide some help to some kids everyday…but everyday I walk out of work thinking… if only I could plan these lessons….
I can’t plan them because I work in a building level I’m not certified to teach in… (I’m a middle school teacher at a high school level without the certification to run the class…) (but it does meet the guidelines of the law….) so I stand silently as they drone on and count the days…
I wish someone would rescue all of us…
I wonder if educators are ready to reveal themselves as learners along side of their students and be vulnerable to the outcome, which might infact be a gift or possibly a battlefield. If we are going to talk about listening to students, we better be prepared to ‘listen to students’ and respond in a responsive manner otherwise status quo of the ritual might continue. We educate in a world different from what we experienced and our learning with and from students needs to be reflective of this. Scary for some, but critical.
I don’t remember how I stumbled on the original post about shadowing students, but I liked what I read, so I forwarded it on to my sister, who is a middle school math teacher. She was struck by some of the findings. According to my sister, “Getting up out of their seats has always been something I don’t encourage but I need to rethink that.”
She liked the article enough, she sent it on to the rest of the teachers in her school. They responded positively (for the most part) and one of them sent the article on to her friends in Louisiana.
As a former school counselor, turned counselor educator, I’m always looking for resources for teachers. I don’t have the personal expertise to comment on a teacher’s performance, so when I can find an expert (article, website, blog, etc) I like to send that information forward, to the teachers on the front line of education.
Excellent pieces – both this follow up and the original. I encourage your daughter to eventually follow her students home where they are yoked with homework that required even more hours of sitting and solitude. Family meals are forgone. Outside activity put aside. Interactions with siblings limited. They come home exhausted and spent, but are asked to give even more in the mundane ritual we accept as education. I think such an exercise by your daughter could leave her in tears. I know my children are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYxkezUr8MQ
and
that which You say and Do
As a student, one of the worst things to hear is “So, you’ll have plenty of time to work on this over break.” I just listened to a story in which a friend couldn’t sit down to Thanksgiving dinner with her family because she had too many papers to write. For teachers, please remember that we need the relaxation – and that whatever you assign, everyone else has too!
Agreed. I’m not a huge fan of homework in general, although I do recognize the importance of independent practice. In high school, I did almost all of my homework in other classes — scratch that. The percentages were so skewed I may as well say I did ALL of my homework in other classes.
In my class, I keep the homework to a bare minimum; if it’s not absolutely necessary to learn the lesson from that class day, I try not to give it. I don’t give homework over breaks, other than telling kids to read every day. Don’t care what; as long as you are reading every day, you’ll work your way up to the “good stuff” I want you to read, eventually. I figure, I don’t really like it when people have pre-Thanksgiving feasts during my class time; why should I give school work during their Thanksgiving time?
Qualifications: I am a Teaching Assistant (about 14 years). I work in a small public school. I feel very respected by all of the teaching staff, and I am afforded the opportunity to co teach in most classrooms. That being said, I feel I have unique experience in that I basically follow students schedules everyday. It’s not a complete schedule, and it varies every year. I have been in many different classrooms. I recognize many of the things the author of the article saw in the two days of observation. I try to fill some of those gaps by checking back in during group work after the teacher has already explained. I also recognize that some teachers can “pull off” a particular style (sarcasm, lecture, and activity with movement) much better than others. I have learned not to dismiss a style, but I recognize when it’s not useful to certain teachers, and I am inspired when it works for another teacher.
In conclusion: there is too much seat time in school and not enough movement, no style can be completely dismissed, and all teachers should shadow students in their grade/grades of teaching. I have noticed when teachers never “leave” their classroom, they stop learning and growing and ultimately lose touch with their students perspective and the respect of those students.
Thank you for this article. It reminds me to take every opportunity available to see things through the students’ point if view. “Perspective is reality”, and that is the key to understanding the actions of all humanity.
I am not in the educational profession, I really do admire those of you who are, so what follows shouldn’t be taken as a condemnation of your work personally but the system that we’ve created.
With the least bit of encouragement I would have been a teacher, thought about it many times, and each time I talked myself out of it, there were too many fences to jump that, to my lights at the time, defied common sense.
I never went to college because it promised only more of what made most of junior high and high School miserable (the same things found in the original article) –
– Students sit all day, and sitting is exhausting.
– High school students are sitting passively and listening during approximately 90 percent of their classes.
– You feel a little bit like a nuisance all day long.
As a high school junior (thirty some years ago) I wrote letters to a few colleges and asked earnest questions; what, exactly, would I be studying? Why was it necessary to study those things? What would my days look like at the college?
In reply I received course catalogs, never one actual answer or expression that there was human being on the other side of the conversation, not the least bit of encouragement,
I went to my high School counselors, wonderful people, I really did like them. They had little room to maneuver; there were lists of credits and menus of classes, I always walked away feeling like a product on a production line.
I loved learning, and I still do. As I sat through high school I remember how fervently I wanted to get out and get on with life
When it came time to look at college I decided I could not face another artificial preparatory stage that stretched over another four years of sitting on my behind listening, I wanted out, I wanted to get going with my life rather than endlessly preparing for it.
So I did.
Before the internet age when I wanted to learn about something I went to the vast college libraries nearby and researched things that interested me. I could while away hours just following my nose, taking notes and reading. I don’t recall how I learned I could use the library without being a student, but when I discovered I could get lending privileges I toted tons of books home. Now all (or most) of those resources are at my fingertips, and I don’t have to drive to the libraries quite so often.
I did know great teachers in high school, (I can tell you their names today and point out how they made life a little more bearable at the time) but they were largely powerless in the face of the industrialized form of education we were compelled to follow. It wasn’t long after entering middle school I sensed what my best teachers understood; we were all trapped in a system of education that seemed to be purposefully designed to drum the earnest love of learning out of their students.
In the end I served my time, and didn’t make (much) trouble. High school graduation was more like getting out of prison than having achieved anything. I was relieved to get out of the mind numbing, slogs through abstractions that I sensed even my teachers knew were of little lasting benefit, and never looked back.
Frankly, folks, it saddens me that things haven’t substantially changed for students like me over the past thirty years.
Those who sometimes wonder at the “state of young people today” needn’t look much father than what we are forcing on them through our system of education.
That most go on to become functional adults is more a testament to the human spirit’s ability to overcome such deplorable conditions than a credit to the way we educate them.
Excellent comment. I agree completely. The industrial model of education might make a little sense if students were preparing for a lifetime of work as mid-level white-collar cubicle drones. But even that future is uncertain and may not be what most students will face in the workplace. If anything, future jobs will require more self-started, self-motivated work, not less.
One thing that struck me was her comment that “I was drained, and not in a good, long, productive-day kind of way. No, it was that icky, lethargic tired feeling. I had planned to go back to my office and jot down some initial notes on the day, but I was so drained I couldn’t do anything that involved mental effort (so instead I watched TV) and I was in bed by 8:30.”
Any teacher shadowning students should then have to go home and do the 3-4 hours (at least) of homework that they’re expected to do. I was surpised that she didn’t tie the above comment to the homework burden on top of it all (no mention of homework at all in the article).
My son’s inability to do homework after a long day at school was a large part of why we ended up homeschooling mid-way through elementary school.
Actually, she DID comment on the fact that she didn’t try to do the homework – I edited that part out, as it was in a long paragraph that I thought was too revealing of who the student was. She said that the students encouraged her next time to do a week in their shoes, especially mindful of homework.
I think, if anything, the homework portion needs to be addressed. If not in the main article, then in a follow-up. It’s a HUGE part of a student’s life and one that many can’t get around. As a high school student I found ways to handle it so that I didn’t spend all night every night working. I’d do it in other classes when I was bored (I had straight A’s so the teachers gave me some leeway as long as my grades didn’t drop), I’d skip lunch and work on it, or in some cases borrow the teacher’s edition and copy answers out of it. Yes, the teacher knew I did it and took it away from me once when I made an A- on the next text.
In addition to the homework, there are the projects. Some of these projects, like your standard science project, have a point. Some, like the large elaborate maps we had to take time after school to borrow the enlarger, trace, color, then fill in country information on, the MOUNT CREATIVELY, were nothing more than extraneous busy-work. The feeling I got when I was a student was that teachers saw this as an add-on. Even when they assigned them, we still had the hours of homework from that class every night, then the project in addition.
One teacher I will never forget was my High School Algebra 2, Trigonometry, and AP Calculus teacher. She used many of the suggestions your daughter thought up in her class over 15 years ago. Every class began with a detailed discussion of our homework (5 questions, and only 5 questions, every day without fail). We were seated in groups of 4, facing our fellow students, and during the lecture that followed she’s often give us group problems to solve or pop quizzes. The pop quizzes were interesting, as she’d be lecturing and suddenly say “QUIZLET!” and we’d all rush to get our small slip of paper she kept in the middle of the group of desks and pull out the dividers she kept inside of them. It was always a 1 question problem, to be done quick. We graded them on the spot and discussed them. I could go on an on about this teacher, but she honestly was one of the best teachers I have ever seen, and easily one of the best I’ve ever had.
It would be great if you would do the homework part in the afternoon, after sitting in class all day. This would give Teacher’s more insight on how the students feels, when they have so much homework and are already drained from being at school for almost 8 hours. It is challenging for students to have 2- 4 hours of homework each night. All the student should be doing is studying for upcoming Tests, not a bunch of busy work!
Way to strike a nerve, Grant!
Many of the commenters have mentioned the need for more physical activity during a school day/class period, which is fine as far as it goes, but limited. To me, the observations of the HS teacher-turned-coach speaks to the need for more engaging and authentic teaching methods, such as Project Based Learning. What a different experience you would have if you shadowed a student at a school that used PBL!
These two posts discuss experiences that are similar to raising children. As parents we employ many of the same techniques when we interact with children. Sarcasm is too easy for us to employ. Quick explanations, frustration and eye rolling can easily top our go-to responses during any of our interactions. I found these posted helpful and intend to repost on several parent blogs I participate in. Thank you for these articles.
Disagree, substantially. With what? Pretty much all of the observations of the authors.
Why? Your “insights” are all from the perspective of the teachers. You followed a kid- but you AREN’T one. Classes are boring? Maybe because you’ve already learned that material? And had a class in college on it to boot? The kids should contribute? Based on what, the four teen-vampire virgins they’ve just studied?
Not that I’m necessarily opposed to teen-lit; but they have not knowledge base (most of them) from which to contribute anything worth while to the discussion.
Even the physical observation; “it’s hard to sit” all day; is sophomoric, and disappointing. Sure, it’s hard for YOU to sit all day- that is not what you’re used to.
The idea of following a kid for several days, to see into their world, is an excellent one. But you have failed entirely to follow one of the most critical caveats in all psychological testing- beware of your personal bias.
Essentially, you have ONE DATA POINT here; not a study that is valid in any way. One person’s subjective (very subjective) observation set.
This is an outstanding, classic, example of how education is perpetually messed up. One expert sees one problem- and changes everything top to bottom; without any experimentation or replication to see if the observation is even valid.
Alas, you are the one with one data point. This finding has been replicated in all student surveys for the past 15 years, and was documented thoroughly through triangulated data in John Goodlad’s A Place Called School. Clearly you have not spoken with students about their experience – this is a very common set of findings.
Dear Mr. Wiggins –
I’m just wondering – what’s the difference between “elite” education and “non-elite” education (see your Clarifying Point #2)? How do you distinguish between the two?
Your comment makes it seem as if the only differentiating factor of “elite” vs. “non-elite” schools is whether or not a school is private…in other words, you seem to insinuate that “private = elite.” is this the case? If so, that sounds a little….well….”elitist.”
Can you please explain the “science” behind such a determination of “elite” versus “non-elite?”
I sincerely hope this was simply a matter of “misspeaking” on your behalf. As a teacher who has worked in public, private-international and charter schools for over 15 years, I simply disagree with a conclusion that “private school = elite school.”
True, private schools tend to have more independence of decision-making, but that does not make a school “elite.”
Secondly, give that: a) public schools have Standardized Curriculum/Tests; b) public schools are, by far, the majority of schools worldwide; c) there were “100s of posts” about standardized tests et. al, and; d) many states are now linking teacher-pay to student-performance on these tests…..shouldn’t you address this reality as part of the issue rather than avoid the question?
Or is the article and its contents only applicable to private-international schools such as the one where the study was carried out?
It seems you’re insinuating this is the case by your response and/or avoidance of this very valid point about standardized curriculum/testing. Obviously, I would want to give you the chance to clarify your statements before coming to conclusions.
However, if standardized curriculum/testing IS part of the problem (which it clearly is, in my opinion), this then raises another valid question: Wouldn’t educational theory be better served addressing the issue of political bureaucrats who force such counter-productive curriculum/testing upon schools/students/teachers? Isn’t this significantly more of cause of the “drudgery” of school, rather than the teachers/schools who are forced to work under such rigidly-predetermined conditions outside of their control?
thanks for reading!
I did not mean to conflate private with elite; point well taken. Many public magnet schools are elite and many private schools are pedestrian. By “elite” I mean they get to choose their kids and/or they are highly selective and/or they have great demographics (e.g. Scarsdale, Winnetka), and they are free from much rigamarole.
I most certainly am not avoiding the point. Private schools are now far more standardized and unimaginative than they used to be, so it can’t be just government directives. Ditto colleges.
I agree w/ some of what you have said here. However, the point you make in the 2nd paragraph simply verifies the fact that we are dealing w/ 2 very different systems (private-public) and, as such, very different problems. I am not implying that Standardized Tests are 100% the problem, but they clearly are a (big?) part of it in public education. I simply think that the article (and your comments) do not address this reality effectively.
This may be for a different article or discussion. This also may be why some teachers responded the way they did….I dunno.
If teachers are “mundane” (or “bad” or whatever…pick your adjective) in private schools, is not administration responsible for not doing THEIR jobs effectively – hiring, firing, providing professional development and guidance etc?…..
Isn’t THAT the cause of “bad” teachers remaining? If the “bad” teacher never got hired (or got fired), then the problem wouldn’t be there to fix in the first place.
There is no excuse for a “bad” teacher in a school without tenure and/or union-protections. If a teacher is “bad,” administration can help them get better through PD….or fire them. The end.
If teachers are “bad” in private schools, I fault administration for this “problem” to a great extent….why even have “administration” if they can’t hire “good” teachers and/or weed out the “bad” teachers?
What other task do they have which is remotely as important as this?
I suppose some would argue that “hiring/firing” is NOT the most important task of administration….especially if the school is “for-profit” (which many international schools are) – enter yet another problem….”the bottom line” – if a school is profit-based, we all know how this effects the scenario. Admin could care less about “bad” teachers as long as the money is coming in….that’s what they were hired to do by the “owners” of the school…I’ve seen it first-hand.
I imagine there is a similar phenomenon at the college/university level….
I guess what I am getting at here is that there are many, many factors which lead to “bad” teachers and/or “bad” teaching.
Obviously, I agree teachers need to constantly try to improve their teaching, try new ideas etc. etc. At the end of the day, we have to overcome the obstacles laid in front of us and do the best we can with what we are dealt.
However, I think that many teachers get defensive b/c they do not feel these other factors are addressed adequately (or at all) in educational-theory when discussing “what needs to be done to improve learning?”
When’s the last time you heard about an administrator being “let go” b/c of budget cuts? Or has been “let go” b/c they are horrid at hiring? Or blamed for keeping “bad” teachers for years upon end? Or fired b/c they care more about the school’s “bottom line” than getting rid of “bad” teachers?
As such, it appears that when it comes to “what’s wrong w/ education?” it seems we, teachers, are always on the hot-seat….while administration, board members, owners and educational bureaucrats are never questioned for their practices which often contradict what is best for student-learning….and, essentially create an environment in which “bad” teaching can persist unabated…..
I don’t mind people critiquing and offering advice (such as the article)….I think it’s great….It’s just annoying when all of the other factors are simply “brushed aside” as essentially “non-factors”…..
thanks for reading!
Actually, I know MANY people in admin ranks lest go due to budget – one local district let its entire staff of supervisors to go. Most other districts in NJ have had to let admins. go. I totally agree about hiring/firing. It’s the most important issue in any workplace and schools do it badly, as I have often noted.
So, what can be done about this issue (hiring/firing)? And if this is the “most important issue” then why is this not the crux of most articles and/or educational theory?
In other words, if we can’t solve THIS issue….then trying to “fix bad teachers” is really putting the cart in front of the horse, is it not?
I worked 9 years overseas….out of all my Headmasters, they came to my class a total of ONE time combined…..the idea that they have/had any clue about what was “working” or “not working” (or even WHO was working/not working) in the classroom is/was a total joke. Other Admin (principals) largely came only when they “had to” (mandatory observations) and rarely otherwise (with the exception of one principal).
I will note….all of these HMs are still working at international private schools…all of them at the same schools…..none of them should be, based on their total lack of concern w/ the learning process.
Yet….they fired teachers they saw as “bad” based on their limited and/or lack of information….and hired teachers they saw as “good” based on very limited information about the person OR what makes a “good teacher” in the first place….
So, surprise-surprise….bad teaching, bad teachers and bad practices persisted at these schools…..those teachers whom I considered “good” teachers did “great” things in the classroom in SPITE of the HMs, not because of them….this is obviously a major problem
My point is: The HM and the Admin set the tone for the ENTIRE SCHOOL…if they demonstrate that they “don’t care,” about what goes on in the classroom, then I have found, you get a lot of teachers who “don’t care” either….either they were lousy when they were hired, or they fed off of the “vibe” of the leadership.
Lousy leaders = lousy school…..
Thankfully, I now work in a school where admin is in classes observing literally every single day…often times more than once per day. Sometimes for a few minutes, sometimes for more….THIS is the model of a great school, in my opinion…..
If admin aren’t doing this….they are not fulfilling their professional obligations as far as I am concerned. As such, they should be held responsible to a large degree for the “failures” in the classroom.
Maybe I need to write an article about “best practices” for admin???
Thanks for reading!
See my piece on hiring, job descriptions etc, in the Solution Tree volume on excellence in teaching.
if it’s any consolation, I had 1 visit in 10 years as a prep school teacher 🙁 By contrast, my friend and colleague Andy Greene, MS Principal, is in classes every day. Each teacher can count on an informal 8-10 times per year.
I’m a kid, a tenth grader to be exact, and one of the best students in my class. So I guess my opinion would be slightly more truthful, yes?
I’m in one of the best private schools in Puerto Rico, and the schooling isn’t that much different. Our schedule went from 40-50 minute blocks (from 8 to 230), to 4 80 minute blocks (from 830 to 3). The change is slightly better in that we aren’t constantly switching rooms, hauling around 7 notebooks plus textbooks, but everything else is much more intense. This year, we don’t even have one day off between labor day and thanksgiving; granted, we have the entire week off, but two straight months of schooling wears down any person regardless of age.
As someone who has been practically sitting his entire life, I feel entitled to say that it is absolutely horrible. You get tired, bored, and you decide to slouch so that at least you have some type of variety in your life. It may
My junior friends, who are also very bright, mind you, keep telling me about sophomore depression (which I have already begun to experience). It can be described as this feeling of dread you feel for all classes (save a few interesting ones where the teachers are excellent, class-giving and personalitywise), and that same feeling that sets in when you have a really stupid assignment, but you don’t want to do it because you’re sick and tired of the only thing you’ve been doing your entire life, studying.
Although things at my school are slightly different from those mentioned in the article, they’re very similar, and I’m happy the message is getting out there.
I’m an 11th grade student going to a community college (via a special program) and I totally agree with both of the articles. Sitting all day is boring. I still absolutely adore learning, but I believe the point is that there’s probably a more effective way of going about it. I am replying to you because you said that teens can’t contribute meaningfully to a academic discussion. Maybe some teens can’t, maybe even most teams can’t, but disregarding all of us is akin to racism.
Jon make no mistake you play a large role in society and your local community. Everything you do matters and everything you do impacts everyone around you from people you know to people you will never meet.
Keep on being you and learn something new about the world everyday!
Thank you very much for the two articles!
I am a biology-teacher in the Netherlands.
I thought I was doing quite well…
But I am impressed by the many things that I just don’t do and which are so obvious.
So I am changing my teaching habits right now and I am going to discuss it in my school.
Great! Please report back to us what you do and how it went.
I will!
I am mystified why so many teachers have forgotten the experience of being a student. Presumably they all spent twelve years in primary and secondary school. How did the memory of those twelve years disappear so completely? Does the teaching curriculum somehow wipe the experience from teachers’ minds? The portrait painted by original essay and by most of the comments is of a profession self-absorbed to the point of obliviousness.
If most teachers realized how stifled and trapped most students feel most of the the time, that would be something else entirely. Then the story would be about a teaching model in need of reform. But it appears that most teachers are clueless about their students’ state of mind and body, and have forgotten their own learning experience.
Actually, I thrived in that experience. In my science classes I performed experiments. In history classes I listened to lectures or watched related video. In both cases, I was learning how the world worked.
Agreed. Most teachers were good students, or else they wouldn’t have ever considered going BACK into school to teach. If they had memories of school as a really unpleasant place, they would avoid it like the plague.
So, if you remember how *nice* school was — a place where you went, were respected by teachers who recognized your abilities, learned things that you mostly cared about, or at least weren’t completely indifferent to, and were lauded and rewarded for your ability to be successful — it’s pretty much a no-brainer why you would come back to school, and teach the way that you had learned.
Frankly, as a more-than-proficient writer and a stellar reader, I can’t IMAGINE trying to learn the way that modern education wants me to try to teach — MTV-style, 10-15 minute flashes of basically all-video information, followed by 20-minute periods of “discovering,” followed by 10-20 minutes of discussion with other students, most of which either don’t know $#!+, don’t care about the subject, or both. To me, that looks like an hour to learn what I could have learned in about 5 minutes of reading, a few answers from the teacher, and a reflection piece of writing.
And the biggest problem with the system is that we prepare students to learn this way, and then they get to college where they are incapable of reading 30-50 pages of text prior to class, then sitting and actively listening to the lecturer/professor as he clarifies the material, adds his own expert information and insight, while taking notes, and then writing something cogent about the information gained.
Until college decides to change styles, we aren’t teaching students to be successful in college when we are catering to the reduced reading and writing ability of this generation.
My first teaching experience was nearly 60 years ago. At the age of 12 I was asked to teach spelling to 4th graders in our two-room, eight-grade rural school.
The last time I taught, four years ago, I began my classes by explaining the purpose of education — not the theory, which is useless, but the purpose as observed by the practice.
Schools are designed to teach obedience. The knowledge gained — and often not much is gained as evidenced by asking the average 40-year-old high school graduate “essential” questions from high school biology, civics, chemistry, physics, or trigonometry — is, for the most part, non-essential.
Knowledge taught in schools is primarily of value for continuing to go to schools.
We can tell that the purpose is obedience by noting the bells that ring to tell the students to stand up and move along to the next station, where a bell will ring to tell them to sit down. We can tell that obedience is the purpose by noting that an authority figure is placed in front of them to tell them what to do, how to do it, when to finish it, and where the work is to be done. Why it is to be done is rarely discussed.
The authority then scores them on their ability to obey instructions to the nth degree. This score will be passed along to future authority figures and will determine their place in the pecking order of organized society.
The model of the school is based on the factory assembly line, and the goal is to produce identical copies. It was designed to prepare workers to do repetitive and uninteresting tasks as ordered by a superior, to show up at a specified time, eat lunch at a specified time, and go home at a specified time.
So the mind-numbing experience, the dullness of lectures on subjects of little interest to most people, the lack of discussion — these are all necessary parts of preparing a docile population for mind-numbing, dull work that requires no discussion and is usually of little interest.
The beauty of the system is that people go to their jobs shuffling papers in a bureaucracy or teaching in a school without thinking they are being abused. They are happy to be successful at what they were taught to do in school — follow orders, show up, and be rewarded appropriately.
Blaming teachers for doing what they were trained to do is wrong-headed. Blaming school systems for doing what they were designed to do is an error. If we want a different system, we will need a different society. This one allows creativity within tight controls. Some people do escape and a few can even think clearly, but the number of escapees is small, so the danger to social order is modest.
You should read the book Linchpin.
This demonstrates why it so important that teachers use more than one teaching method, and why students should be actively learning, not just sitting and listening. High school students are not college students, and should not be treated as if they were. Students are being robbed of the lessons of critical thinking and problem solving. The evidence of this is beginning to show up in millennials.
Grant I too started teaching high school in 1978. I taught for 19 years in the classroom and became an administrator to a public school in another district. I attended a NJ state conference where you explained the UBD format. I accidentally had been using it in the classroom, but it never had a name. Now as an adjunct supervising student teachers and teaching a course on campus I have attempted to incorporate the UBD in my class and my student teachers along with with theInnovative Design Education of student centered learning . My college students are active learners in a 21/2 hour class twice a week. I post the objectives for the class by activity, present power point notes on blackboard that are no longer than 20 minutes, have research pairs present,have the class do an independent reading, pair and share or group by fours to discuss anywhere in the room or outside in the hall or literally outside the building, then return to present group opinions, ideas or formulated answers to specific guided questions. Alexis is right, we have paralyzed the students to sit and learn must like dog training resulting in a bored and limited motivated group of learners . It was one of my college students who forwarded me Alexis’ article from the Washington Post and said Mr. Miller you teach exactly how this writer recommends! It was the ultimate compliment and I owe much of its practice to you , UBD and IDE!
These both were great and I think all educators not just HS teachers could use a reminder. As a person growing up with ADHD I can remember sitting in a desk like it was a torture chamber and I could zone out in my own head for an entire class. Also off topic I am a blogger and am wondering what plug in you used to view stats for a single post as you’ve shown in your screen shot.
I work from home essentially reading, all day, every day – because I work from home. I often get up and move every 20 minutes. Either because I’m bored or uncomfortable or tired or bored. Or bored. I couldn’t imagine having to sit still for 50 minutes or 80 minutes and try to learn something like geometry or algebra. Ick!
I like the posts quite a bit as I’m married to a teacher, but I think a few key things are missing from the assessment.
Key point #1: 2 days to get used to a routine is not enough.
When I was much younger, I worked for a manufacturing job where my shift was Monday – Thursday from 7AM – 7PM. During this work day, we were not allowed to sit except for our twenty (20) minute lunch and one (1) fifteen minute break. The first two (2) weeks were excruciatingly painful on my feet, back, and joints. I often slept for 8-9 hours after the day’s shift work where I had been used to sleeping 4-5. The first day off of the first week when I started (and I’ll never forget) I slept for 11 hours straight, and took 3 naps for another 6 hours.
However by the third week, at the end of my first shift my feet didn’t hurt anymore, my back and joints were nimble, and I wasn’t as exhausted after work. My sleeping patterns started to return to a healthy level of 6-8 hours a night, and on my first day off that week I was functional for most of the day. To spend only two (2) days following in someone’s footsteps where they have been doing it for years is not the best insight. Bodies and minds are amazing things that can adapt to whatever situation needed
Key point #2: Age differences matter.
I personally cannot do anything like I was able to do when I was 14-18. I had endless energy, amazing physical recovery, and believed I could do anything if I put my mind to it. My Junior year I played in 2 sports, played in the marching band, jazz band, pep squad, and concert band, sang in the choir, was in student council, in the musical, had a girlfriend, and so on. It hurts my brain even thinking about how many different and coinciding things I used to do as a kid. Right wrong or indifferent, I was busy, all the time. And yet, I still managed to get a 3.6 GPA. If I was asked to do everything I did as a teenager again over 20 years later, I would fail miserably. I was built different “back in the day.”
Don’t get me wrong, I like the key points brought up in the article. I think kids should get to move and have more interactive classes to engage their minds and body and maybe every some input to their educational track. However with increasing class sizes, integration of classrooms with special needs learners, catering to all different types of students and how they learn is a tall order to complete in a day’s lesson that lasts from 40 min – 90 min depending on the school. I applaud all the teachers that try everyday to do this as I couldn’t even if I wanted to.
Great post, and response. Kudos to you and your daughter, Grant. Among so many other things, a reminder of how much the tendacy to cram “more” into the school day (and after, in the form of home work) is so often counterproductive. Get the kids engaged. See: Dewey, John.
Something entirely left out of either article, is the social aspect of schooling. When I was in school teachers just automatically assumed that all students could work together, or were friends, when nothing was farther from the truth. It is still happening to my son today. He is in a class where there is a supposed group project that has to be done. He is doing the project alone, because he is not friends with the other kids in his assigned group. Teachers 30 years ago, and teachers today are oblivious to the social ramifications that our students face, and shadowing the student for a day, a week, or a year, will give you no further insight into the non education related trials that the student faces, in addition to the mountains of homework that teachers lay onto students.
So, when in a business meeting, or faculty in-service, according to your astute observations of the Wiggins’ articles, the supervisor should be mindful of the social ramifications of the employees to allow only those who like each other to work together? That seems a bit too naive to think that we should not teach our students that sometimes, in life, we need to work with people we do not like for the greater good.
I get to choose my job. If I don’t like my coworkers, I can work somewhere else. My son doesn’t get to choose his teachers or classmates. What he gets is what he gets, and he has no recourse. Students (at least in my area) do not have the same protections that adults in careers have. There is no “hostile work environment” rule for students. Don’t equate school to a job. Students don’t get paid to be there.
Both Brad and Sligneronline raise valid points. I assign team projects to my students. But collaborative learning in classrooms doesn’t magically happen if a teacher simply put students into groups and hopes for the best. The task has to be designed to be completed as a group, all group members need to be individually accountable for their efforts, and the students need coaching in how to work with each other and troubleshoot conflicts. If any of these elements are missing, collaborative projects become an exercise in frustration for the students that they resent (and rightly so, in my opinion).
One of the (many!) elephants in the room here is the personality / interaction style of each student. As an introverted person (no, I’m NOT shy, it simply means that I’m internally motivated and focussed), I absolutely abhor “group work.” I’m also very poor at the general verbal ‘jousting’ that is required for a group discussion… but let me consider a written response and I’ll likely blow your metaphorical socks off.
It seems that the prevailing attitude is that students need to be outgoing, have lots of friends and revel in the company of others. I enjoy none of those things.
At a party, I’m just as likely to be in the corner reading a book!
However (and is may come as a surprise) my occupation is Instructional Designer and Technical Trainer (I also regularly deliver train-the-trainer sessions). What most forget is that in such a role, I’m fully in command of the situation – in fact it is probably better seen as an interactive performance!
I strongly suggest you track down Susan Cain’s book “Quiet” to gain an insight into (perhaps) 30 – 40% of your students – the ones who are forced into a process of faking an outgoing personality merely to be seen as mentally healthy!
One of the best lessons teachers can give is how to work with others who are not friends. They just need to be sure to assess them separately.
As a teacher at the graduate level, I found that grouping students together randomly worked the best. This largely eliminates the “alpha” personality from gathering subordinates together; but also mimics my forty years’ of experience in the military and civilian sectors. Brad is correct that we rarely get to choose who our coworkers are (sorry Slingeronline) and we only occasionally get to choose our job or mission. In my view, working together (collaboration) is the most important life skill we can teach our children. Whether in kindergarten or a Masters program, learning to work together is vital. I agree with the man who said that all he needed to know he learned in kindergarten. Content is one thing. Using it is another.
I am a first grade teacher, and have only taught first and second grade. In the early childhood grades, you can actually see when the students need to get up and move around. I use a workshop model (mini-lesson, independent practice with small group or individual conferences, closure) in all subject areas. I limit my mini-lessons to 10 to 15 minutes, or I can see that my kids lose focus. It can be hard to teach students to work independently. Even at 6 and 7 years old, they are used to being spoon fed information, and at first actually resist working on their own and in small groups. But after lots of modeling and practice, they get to the point that they can not only work efficiently on their own and in small groups, but they end up teaching one another things that I did not even think to mention. Their conversations amaze me. My daughter is in third grade, and I worry about what her future holds. I know that she will be miserable if she is required to sit and listen all day long. She loves learning, but she will end up disliking school. I feel that late elementary school tries to model middle school and high school. I wish that it was the other way around, and that older grades would try to keep the children moving around and working creatively like they do in the early childhood grades. Hopefully articles like this will help.
This is a helpful reminder that elementary teachers long ago figured out the design problem. Indeed, a movement between mini-lesson, stations, student discussion is a common feature of the more sensible swecondary-level classes, e.g. Physics, Math problem-based learning, Socratic Seminar in English, etc.
Grant I love the article. I agree we are treating our students very poorly. That said your 2nd sentence is nothing but ‘teacher speak’. After the spelling error the thought goes completely off the tracks.
What about homeschool in all of this? I’m highly considering homeschool my baby girl when she gets a bit older, partially for the reason of interactive learning and an attentive, present teacher.
-www.tealtomato.com
I am opposed to home schooling in most circumstances. There are occasions when it really is the best solution for a child, including when the available schools are inappropriate for the student or when the parent is a qualified teacher who also receives outside assistance. However, most parents just don’t have the expertise required to teach a child effectively. I was recently in contact with a mother who was refusing to send her children to school, preferring a more natural and experiential learning method. Her eight year old daughter was finally sent to school at the insistence of her father, but was incredibly behind her peers in every single way – she could not read or write, had very little understanding of social conventions, could not catch a ball or tie her shoes, had little comprehension of basic numeracy – the list is long. Experiential learning is a wonderful, exciting way to learn and can absolutely be used to get the most out of a child, but in inexperienced hands it easily turns into a simple play session or an enjoyable outing rather than an educative experience. Years of teacher training and experience is difficult to replicate, no matter how well-intentioned a parent is.
Yes, homeschooling is a very different experience and does not have these issues! I don’t know who Heather is but she is basing her comment on homeschooling on a very small number of students! Keep researching and getting to know other homeschoolers and the make your decision.
I have taught college English for years and almost all of my students who were home schooled have gaping holes in their education that I can see as a college English teacher. Not having spoken with colleagues in other fields about this, I wonder what gaps they see. I’m with Heather. Most parents are not qualified teachers.
Hmmm, I wonder why colleges like Stanford seek out homeschoolers if they are as badly prepared as you think. If one were to judge schooling by looking at how ill-prepared some students are for college, you both would think that was unfair, but you use that approach to judge homeschooling. It’s not for everyone, but it can work out quite well. Learning is as much about loving to learn, eagerness to know and relationships with mentors, teachers, librarians or parents as it is about techniques.
I really appreciated this article, not because it has anything to do with homeschooling but because it showed how one teacher creatively engaged in a process that provided a new perspective and she learned something of value that will change how she moves forward in life. She learned this without having someone develop a lesson plan and strategy for her to learn this. This is what it means to be engaged with learning!
As someone who just graduated form high school last year I can say that many of the observations in the articles are very true. I went to a very academically rigorous school where not only were we encouraged to take as many AP classes that we could but also to engage in as many extracurriculars as we could in order to appear “well-rounded” on a college application. We were given at least 4 or 5 hours worth of homework most nights which made it very difficult to be in sports or clubs of any sort. It honestly felt like the teachers just wanted to cram as much information into our heads as possible without telling us WHY we needed to learn what we were learning. Sitting in a desk all day was exhausting, even with the 40 minute class periods. I was fortunate to have a few teachers that based their classes on discussion rather than lecture and it was very helpful in the learning process. As much as I love to learn, I hated going to class because most of the time it was boring and we were given a lot of busy work that really did nothing for the students or our understanding of the material. I’m glad that some attention is being brought to this and there are discussions taking place on how it can be fixed, I think it could really help future generations do better in school!
Claudia, thanks for sharing your experience. As I have often noted in this blog and my other writings, the failure to listen to students is one of the main reason why schools do not improve much. it is especially important to hear from good students who criticize the down side of their experience. Thanks for taking the time to write.
I went to a college prep high school and while sitting for long periods did get tedious the worst for me was knowing that with the time I had there was no way I could get all of the homework done. It was humanly impossible. So each week I would pick one or two subjects to neglect–I would do the homework for those subjects during other classes. Then, the next week I’d switch it up. If the assignment wasn’t worth much I didn’t do it. I managed to get great grades but the stress of never being done with the homework and constantly feeling like I was running on a treadmill that was going too fast really took its toll. Freshman year of college was such a relief. I had free time for once. Also, because my evenings were spent doing homework and papers and projects, my mornings before school were test prep time since I didn’t have time to study I simply crammed. High school teachers had no idea how long their assignments took and also had no concept of how much other homework their colleagues assigned.
I know exactly what you’re talking about. I’m currently in my last year of HS and it just keeps getting harder. Like your school, my school loves it’s academics and encourages AP classes. I go to a termed school so I have all my classes all year round which means I have at least 6 exams at the end of the year. Even though I specially engineered my schedule to have 2 spares and 7 classes, there still isn’t enough time to get all the homework finished. Add to that captain duties, charity clubs, volunteering and family responsibilities and I basically have no time to relax or really have any fun. What I do is that I spend entire evenings doing the homework for 2-3 classes each night and whatever I don’t finish I wake up even earlier to do. This allows me to keep up but it’s ridiculously stressful. Sometimes I feel like teachers forget how exhausting learning really is. I have teachers that assign whole weekends of homework for their class and then get upset when students neglected it to study for tests and complete other assignments. It’s a completely irrational system and isn’t at all healthy for students. I understand that teachers work hard, and I respect them for their work but please excuse me if I don’t feel particularly sympathetic when they complain about marking. I know a fair number of them have other students marking the work and something that chafes quite a bit amongst students is that we do all this work for what feels like very little reward, I don’t find school rewarding even though I find learning to be. And that saddens me greatly.
Here’s an example of the benefits of involving students in a more hands-on way.
I’m a network and systems engineer who used to work in a large K-12 district. Our department used to have internships for certain kids in the “Cisco Academy” programs that a couple of our high schools had. These kids were mostly seniors, with a few juniors, and it was to prepare them for perhaps getting a valuable IT certification. Generally, I took the lead in actually leading the internship, which lasted six weeks during the school year. To choose the student, we would have somewhat rigorous job interviews, and it was considered an honor to land an internship with us.
Why did these kids apply for our internships? Here’s why.
I’d show ’em some network gear and two computers. Then I’d ask ’em to hook up this stuff in a small network and have the two computers talk to each other. I’d just stand back and watch them. They’d figure it out. Now they’re jazzed up.
Next question I’d ask ’em: “OK, not bad. Now, you think you’re ready to learn the really *cool* stuff like ?” Now their eyes are lit up. This is the bait, see, because the next thing is, “OK, great. Well, to do the cool stuff, ya gotta learn the theory first so you know what you’re doing. Read this chapter tonight, ’cause we’re gonna talk about it tomorrow.” Now they’re ready. Next day, we’re at a whiteboard, dry-erase-markers in hand, having discussions. They’re hooked. The bait worked. 🙂
By the time the six weeks are over, they’ve built essentially a small enterprise-grade network, the concepts of which they can (and do) apply to any other enterprise network. In other words, they can actually do something useful and make some money out there as a junior network administrator. And they’ve got the concepts and theory to back ’em up.
Does this work? Oh, yeah, it does. One such intern from 2007 got a hold of me just a couple months ago. Turns out he now works for a major Internet Service Provider doing heavy-duty network engineering, loves it, and is getting paid handsomely for it. He’s actually surpassed me a bit! I love it.
More than once, we heard the following sentiment from our interns: “I’ve learned more in these six weeks than I have in class all year.” Not surprising to me, folks. See, there was very little “sitting down”, and very little, if any, “passive learning”. We’re moving. We’re *DOING*. We’re building. The kids could *SEE* that what they were learning matters.
Word, naturally, got out about all this after the first year. And that’s why we had no less than six kids every year interviewing with us for that spot.
–TP
That doesn’t work in a school setting.
In a school the kids who take the class aren’t only the ones jazzed up about computers and confident in their ability to think and play with them. It’s also kids who are *afraid* of computers…feel threatened by them and freeze up whenever they don’t have a list of steps they know how to follow. I’m sure you’ve seen this when you’ve tried to coach non-techie people about using their computers. They think they aren’t any good with computers so they feel threatened and intimidated by them (so they aren’t any good) and freeze up when they wander off the known path.
Try giving someone like that some hardware and a vague instruction. They won’t even plug things into the holes they fit in and see if the screen lights up. They will just tell you they’ve never done it before and don’t know how. I’ve literally tried for many years as a college professor to coax students who don’t like a subject into creatively trying things at it (and seen much better educators do so) and it’s consistent failure. It sucks to fail at something and if you think you are clueless and have no hope of doing something you just won’t bruise your ego further by really giving it a serious try. You will just mechanically do some things if they tell you to plug stuff in but won’t ever creatively engage with the problem…because that effort means it hurts when you fail. Worse, other students mean that you can’t let everyone feel like they are doing great. If you come in thinking you aren’t very good at this there is nothing like seeing your classmates doing better to ram it home.
I left teaching because of this. Teaching the kids who choose to take the class, are filled with excitement and a desire to learn the material is great and is a piece of cake (relatively). All you need to do is give them a little push and point them towards the right answers. The more you ask the more independent and self-motivated they become. But teach a class filled with students who are they by college requirement or because their guidance counselors told them they should have computer (or math or whatever) skills/class and it’s a whole different story.
What works for the most motivated confidant students backfires utterly. You have to choose between teaching the ideas and concepts to the best students and simplifying it done to a list of instructions without any thought if you want to get the bottom half of the class to do anything but give up in despair. It’s a horrible sophie’s choice where really learning will happen only by requiring creative problem solving and independent thought … the very same things that cause the bottom half to simply give up and dismiss you (and your recs) as an awful teacher. I think some people learning is better than many people memorizing but a school won’t allow that choice. It’s less bad but still a problem at higher levels in school…you still have people hanging on beyond their skill level who would never be given a job at a firm at that level whose judgement of your teaching is of great professional importance so can’t be abandoned. They start flailing when you try and give assignments that challenge and enlighten the students who belong.
So take your most difficult and incompetent relative when you try and give basic computer advice. The person who writes down how to go to a new webpage and doesn’t know the difference between a search and web address. Now take someone just like them who isn’t related to you and is too shy to speak up when confused and see how it goes with them as an intern. Say it’s easy after that.
That is one of the fundamental problems of teaching. The assessment of teachers heavily weights how much the worst students learned but everyone can look better on assessment by using memorization and unthinking application of heuristics when they get above their head.
Your response to this article clearly reveals that you are not teaching under the conditions that most teachers are in this country. I would love to assign a work of literature, bait the kids and then say, “one, two three, go!” , sit back and watch them unravel William Faulkner. You are teaching to the “A.P. computer science kids not the general education, high school diploma only track that most teachers do. The smug tone you use is disrespectful.
But there WAS homework! You had indeed put out the bait first, so the enticement worked. College lectures from good teachers often worked this way, I found, where the reading had to be done as homework, and the following day(s) built on that information. Many subjects could be taught this way.
Following with interest! I was an excellent student and I don’t remember the sitting to be an issue. But, when I was in HS, I walked 2 miles to school (uphill), had 4-6 classes including daily PE, and walked 2 miles downhill back home before I did my homework. So I got some good exercise during the day. Maybe as we’ve cut PE to save $$, we’ve actually harmed our students’ ability to focus & function well at school. Just a thought.
I was looking for the homework aspect of the experiment and I hope that the next installment will talk about the homework. It’s really crazy. I wish we could abolish all homework at the elementary level, have mild homework for middle school, and limit HS homework to 2 hrs/night total. Anything more than that is counterproductive. And no homework on breaks — sheesh!
That’s really great that your daughter did this experiment. It should be suggested to all teachers that they do this every couple of years, just in case they forget!
Great overall post, great concept. But I’d love to hear a follow-up of a teacher shadowing students for a week, in the middle of the semester, and trying to keep up with the homework. If sitting in class is difficult, homework will be impossible.
In addition, tack on extra curricular activities such as sports or clubs. All things that make kids well-rounded and are things they enjoy, but it makes for very, very long days.
It doesn’t get much better in college – except often the classes are shorter. But the passive learning phenomenon still exists, and I am often that timid student raising their hand trying to enter the discussion that doesn’t get noticed. I’m working on being a little more vocal (I don’t have a choice), but it’s not going to happen overnight, and I feel like everything I learn is via osmosis. And I also definitely feel like missing class isn’t a big deal – everything professors teach is out of the book. And these are professors who do active research in these fields! I’ve only had one so far talk about his research in lecture.
For me it didn’t really improve until grad school. We did case studies and used the Socratic method to discuss. It was much more enjoyable and I did much better as a student. I don’t understand why HS, middle and even grade schools don’t teach that way.
Probably 2 big reasons of many: 1) most students don’t do the prep HW necessary to have those types of discussions and 2) teachers don’t feel they have the time to have those types of discussions because of everything they are mandated to cover, etc. These two reasons still don’t get down to the root problems though.
I say the passive learning in college is exponentially worse than high school. Blah, blah, blah, blah was generally my experience in a college lecture.
Really interesting social experiment. Thanks for sharing your observations. I wonder if students might actually change some of their behaviors if they were able to “be a teacher” for a day – plan and present clear and stimulating lessons, manage classroom disruptions, write and grade tests/essays, etc. Perhaps an ideal classroom environment would be one in which both teachers AND students could imagine being in each others’ shoes and act accordingly.
It was not a social experiment. I have not read anywhere that the students were used for any experimentation. The observation will of course change some aspect of the student/teacher interchange. the teacher will be on their “best” behavior due to a professional observer in the Class. The student will be more alert because their behavior is also being observed. Would you be willing to surrender all your authority to sit in the class as a student? You ask the students to change their behavior, but offer them no stake in the outcome.
As a junior in high school I got the opportunity to go to an elementary school to teach and shadow a teacher for 3 days a week over 2 weeks. What a blast! I did it for 2 weeks in the fall and 2 weeks in the spring with the same class and teacher. I learned that teaching was much harder than I knew. Also that it was easier to involve the students in their own learning than having to keep telling them to “be quiet”. One lesson I was unprepared for I learned in the Teachers’ room. Eight of the teachers were taking a night class in Geometry. They were not understanding the homework assignments. During lunch and again right after school I ran tutorials/study sessions for them. I learned that: a) I knew more Geometry than I thought I did*, b) I liked teaching the teachers more than I did teaching the kids, and c) clearing up their misunderstandings was more about me listening to their fears and reducing their stress than it was about actually re teaching the material. I loved it. It gave me a lot to think about.
Later I ended up teaching teachers again. I taught writing workshops and how to teach children of mixed abilities in classes with no extra time, no help and limited resources.
I will never forget my experiences in my foray into student teaching. What a wonderful experience.
* The joke here was that I was barely passing Geometry myself! I knew the material (apparently) but I could not apply it on tests. My teacher gave me extra credit for helping the teachers out because he said it was helping me learn it too.
Thank you for sharing your experience – it sounds like it had a profound impact on your life!
I’m in my fourth year of retirement after almost 40 years of teaching. My own observations, similar to the reflections of your daughter and the inclination of ‘lecture method’ delivery in the elementary school setting helped send me on my way. Whole language and multi level class groupings were the most exciting years. It was so thrilling to see kids and their excitement for learning. Don’t get me wrong. These methods were not perfect but with the advent of accountability we in education, once again, threw the baby out with the bathwater! I despair that education will ever get it right! I cringe each time I hear my 6th grade grandson talk about how boring school is.
I began my teaching with Whole Language and to this day the excitement and involvement in reading and learning has never been matched. These kids learned to LOVE authors/illustrators and avidly read every book they could get their hands on. The learning was deeper because they wanted to know things. This was because the students were involved: they decided what projects to do, how the day would go etc. And yes, they did learn to read but most of all they wanted to read. I do not see this passion in students anymore. I find it deeply troubling but I am still doing my best to instill this love of learning. Still fighting the good fight of connecting kids with books that will “speak” to them.
I also allow my students to bring one page of notes to every exam (written on both sides, as small as they can write or type!) – they must be their own work, and they turn them in with the exam. Some call them “cheat sheets” but they actually encourage a deeper level of study, and greater retention, and the real value is in preparing the notes, not in taking the test, most often (I have been doing this for more than 20 years of university teaching)
I’ve done the same thing, and it works beautifully. Usually students will say, “Thanks prof! I didn’t really need it though.”
I’m a college student in Computer Science and though this is a bit of a tangent, I have to say that making a “cheat sheet” really does help, and not just because I have a crutch for the test. I have a few professors that allow for the use of an index card of notes. In my experience, people seem to think that it’s just an loohole for me to not have to study.
I’ve found, however, that the process of creating the “cheat sheet” really facilitates studying and helps solidify concepts for me. I only have so much space to work with, so considering what I should put on my index card forces me to think about the most important concepts on a broad scale and then paraphrase them simplest terms. If I didn’t understand a concept before making the notecard, I do by the time it’s finished. I often find that by the time I get to the test, I don’t really need the note card or, if I do, it’s to look at a few key words that remind me of how I can expand upon a concept.
Glad you took the time to post this. I have heard this from a number of students over the years, and given what we know about movement of stuff from short-term to long-term memory it just makes sense. Thanks!
While I agree that we have students sit passively for much too long, I’ve got a small bone to pick. You wrote,
“The fact that such passive learning exists in good private schools (and colleges) only makes the matters raised in her post MORE important: why do we continue to make even elite education so passive when we don’t have to?”
What makes these schools where there is so much passive learning “good?” Why are they “elite?” Because of the test scores the students achieve? I would argue that if the learning really is as passive as described (and I have no reason to believe it’s not), then the scores the students achieve are in spite of the teaching, not because of. The students could learn just as much from a syllabus, course outline, & practice problems with answer keys (for feedback).
I work in a district with generally poor test scores. We’re high poverty, with students that are transient. We have a large number of immigrant and refugee children. We don’t have students sitting passively as much as described in the original article (although there is still way too much passive “learning”), mainly because we have learned that passive learning doesn’t engage our students.
So my beef isn’t so much any of the content posted in your PS or in the original post – but simply with the categorization of schools as “good” or “elite” simply because the students attending the schools are “good” or “elite.” A small point perhaps, but worthy of mention.
To get a true feeling for a student’s day, the shadow should also struggle through the mountains of homework regularly assigned by each class.
Dr. Wiggins, I read your blog for the first time a couple of weeks ago when a teacher at my school couldn’t stop talking about your daughter’s post. As a result, our instruction team is planning a day to shadow students and then share our observations with the rest of the staff. Thank you for the illuminating and enlightening post. I would also like to know if we could use the survey that you posted? After reading through the questions, it looks like an ideal quantitative compliment to our student shadowing data.
Sure. Send me an email – grant@authenticeducation.org – and I’ll set up the survey for you.
I agree that schools need help. I almost feel that the teachers dont make enough money to care. And it goes beyond class work. I have found its counselors and athletics as well. My daughter was. 3.5 GPA student through middle school and freshman year in Alaska. Her class alone had more kids than her entire student body at her last school. My daughter, being a sophmore, was made a teachers aide 4 out of 8 periods a day. She had an online math, choir, writing and woodshop. I brought up my concerns and they went unanswered. 2nd semester, the only change was she was put in a regular math class.
Now, from the beginning. She is now enrolled in the same Oregon HS that I have gloated on. My best memories are from that school. Twenty years later, i still go hunting and to BBQ’s with one of the greatest me I have ever met. My math and woodshop teacher. My daughters current math teacher, who was mine for a year as well as my sister, found out who my daughter’s relatives were and stated “i should have retired last year, there is no hope for you”
My daughter is now doing her studies at home. Three semesters with 6 electives doesnt cut it.
Now for athletics. My daughter is a competitive cheerleader. And lettered in gymnastics her freshman year. This school will only allow football cheer. Nothing more. People that passionate in a sport strive to use it as a way into colleges. How can that be done with only one season? This activity keeps them busy, off the street, and away from drugs and peer pressure. Its incredibly important.
My daughter was failed…. By the school I so dearly loved
As a former Health and Physical Educator in New Jersey for 30 years and a former college basketball coach I am depressed thinking about the boredom of sitting all day long in a classroom, while PE hours dwindle, after school activities are cut, genetically modified and processed foods, while one in four are obese. We need to change our ways!
Reblogged this on The Musings Of An Educator and commented:
This pattern sadly should not surprise most educators, we must work harder to create valid opportunities for students to be actively engaged in learning
I’m disappointed with the teacher’s naive belief that dividing up students into groups (or anything else really) can give students the sense that they are contributing to the discussion and will be missed if absent. Sorry, they may be helping to educate their less advanced classmates but independent thought, critical questions and any feeling that their voice matters is suppressed by group work not enhanced. This has been my experience first very intensely as a student and later as an educator. (They can be very useful in other aspects just not in fostering thoughtful beyond pedantry questions that make students feel like their ideas are taken seriously and their contribution would be missed in an absence).
Problem is that good thoughtful questions mean trying to reach for something beyond you not a clarification about something you feel sure about. It is hard enough to convey what’s in your head to the teacher who has many years of experience in teaching (and common questions/confusions) and a mastery of the material being taught. It is almost impossible to do so to other students who are virtually guaranteed to be behind the student inspired enough by this particular material to reach ahead and ask a thoughtful question. The other students are still trying to master the material being taught…how can you ask a thoughtful question that calls into question that viewpoint or brings up related issues or does anything but clarify a point of dogma?
Basically ask yourself, who are you more likely to successfully ask a thoughtful question of in a classroom. The teacher who knows the material and can respond with more information and ideas that go beyond the text you read or a fellow student you see struggling beside you who is having difficulty understanding that text?
I know this has unpleasant implications. Teacher time is finite and only a few kids can non-trivially influence a discussion any period. Still, it’s best to use this time to it’s full potential not pretend that grouping up students in discussions makes them feel satisfied.
Many experienced teachers become biased by their experience as time goes by and they become inured to new questions, idea’s or concepts that don’t match the preset criteria, that has evolved over time. Education is about ‘discovery’ of self thru the interactions with others in a classroom setting; some classes are dynamic in nature and content and are taught that way, where everyone can be involved.
While other classes like math and literature are more passive in nature and it takes the teacher to entice the ‘joy of discovery’ of the students and get them involved. Many will say that this is a bunch of hooey or horse manure, but the way education is taught in the United States must change for the better or the future generations of students will continue on in the same vain and falter when they go out into the great wide world.
Maybe teaching how to formulate strong questions ought to be a goal. The Right Question Institute, whose work was founded in the recognition that asking good questions is crucial to participation in a democratic society, is a good place to start. It would seem a truism that students often don’t ask good questions because they’ve only ever been on the receiving end of questions. Formulating good questions is a skill that can be taught/ought to be taught.
I suggest looking into Socratic Seminars, The Touchstones Discussion Project, and other such initiatives. Unless the classroom culture honors and promotes student inquiry, then Peter’s observations will hold true. But change the culture and power structure of the classroom, and such limitations fall away.
I have an MA in ESL, and one of the completion requirements was demonstrated proficiency in a second language. The reasoning behind it was so we would know what it’s like to be language learners and not just language teachers.
I’m currently teaching at a university overseas and am frustrated by a student body that shot itself in the foot. My school is an urban university where about 90% of the students commute; some time ago, they voted to have all classes in solid 3-hour blocks to make the commute “worth it,” especially if they only have one class that day. While I can see and understand the logic of the decision, I whole-heartedly disagree with it. Even with giving my students breaks and incorporating varied styles of learning activities, I struggle to keep my students engaged for even two hours, let alone three. Heck, I don’t even want to be there for a solid three hours!
I could go on, but many of us are shackled by external forces. It’s an oft-repeated lament, I know, but it’s true.
I’m very interested by your thoughts on the “Sudbury Valley School” – I’m going to google it and learn more. When I’ve taught theatrical characterization and history I do my best to ask questions that fire up people’s imaginations.
I read the guest post and this PS and many of the comments with my Sudbury Valley School (SVS) “glasses” on. Having had a child go there (and go onto college, grad school, and a job in her field if we measure school success that way), and having read many of their publications and other articles about “Sudbury model” schools, that perspective influences how I read and understand various problems and solutions with schooling. Generally the problems don’t seem to happen at SVS and the proposed solutions aren’t needed.
I searched for SVS in this blog to make sure I wasn’t posting redundant information, but several searches returned no results. I believe:
1) SVS, and schools like it work, and would work for most kids.
2) Most people either don’t know of SVS or dismiss it as “crazy talk” or “it may work for certain kids, but not for me or my kids”
Do you have a link to the post about the shadowing of the other block of classes?
This article is cool.
I believe I am using student-centered, progressive, ‘best practices’ methods in my classes- but I still encounter students who don’t like these methods. How should I respond? I wrote about the dilemma here: https://allliz.wordpress.com/2016/05/28/how-to-teach-about-learning/